Curse

Ziv · Jul 31, 2009, 02:32 PM // 14:32

I came up with this nuking build for my mesmer/ele. I'm still pretty new so I don't have these skills and I can't try this build out yet, but I'd appreciate some comments/criticism. Is it any good? As far as whether this build is for PVP or PVE, I haven't really decided, but I think it could be useful for either with a few changes. I also have a feeling there's some skills I'm overlooking.

Attributes:

Fast Casting 12+1+2
Earth Spells 12

Skills:

Stone Daggers
Eruption
Earthquake
Elemental Attunement (Elite)
Earth Attunement
Arcane Echo

For the last two, I'm thinking some combination of the following:

Aftershock
Magnetic Surge
Armor of Earth
Kinetic Armor

Or switch attributes to Fast Casting 11+1+2, Earth Magic 11, Domination 8+1 for:

Backfire
Cry of Frustration

Or Fast Casting 11+1+2, Earth Magic 11, Inspiration 8+1 for:

Mantra of Concentration

So basically this build is cripplingly vulnerable to enchantment dispelling, but as long as the attunements hold up it can cast stone daggers twice per second for 0 energy cost and eruption/earthquake for 4 energy each. Arcane Echo can copy one of the AoEs, or it can be used to keep elemental attunement up indefinitely.

For the skills I'm considering for the last two spots: I'm hesitant to add even more enchantments on top of what I already have, but Kinetic Armor and Armor of Earth would give a huge survivability boost, especially if used together. Aftershock I'm weary about since point-blank attacks with a squishy caster doesn't sound good, but it looks ok otherwise. Magnetic surge ignores armor. Backfire and Cry of Frustration I figured would be worthwhile since I'm barely using any energy in this build, and they offer escape opportunities. Mantra of concentration I'm not quite sure about. I see most interrupt skills have secondary effects that are contingent on their successfully having interrupted the target. So I'm assuming that Mantra of concentration would prevent those secondary effects from happening? I was really expecting there to be more Mesmer skills that would complement this build but I can't really find any. Maybe there's something I just didn't think of.

My Critique:
PRO:

112 DPS from Stone Daggers which can pretty much be used as much as you want.
If you go with Armor of Earth and Kinetic Armor, your survivability vs non-armor-ignoring attacks goes up to 8 times your current survivability (with earth spells 12) or to 7.2 times (earth spells 11).
Energy cost of Eruption and Earthquake goes down from 25 to 4 with the Attunements
Arcane Echo can be used to keep Elemental Attunement up indefinitely or to copy one of the AoE spells.

CON:

Enchantment Dispelling = gg if it hits Elemental Attunement
Stone Daggers is very vulnerable to damage absorbtion from Stoneflesh Aura, Shielding Hands, and especially Shield of Absorbtion
Stone Daggers is also vulnerable to Diversion
Earthquake causes Exhaustion.
You're squishy if you don't have Earth Armor or Kinetic Armor

Evasion Twenty · Jul 31, 2009, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Bring aura of resto if you get ench areas, that could give SOME cover, even if multiple rips. It would also be good to heal yourself a tiny bit, albeit not much.

Even with 0 in Energy.

Ziv · Jul 31, 2009, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evasion Twenty

Bring aura of resto if you get ench areas, that could give SOME cover, even if multiple rips. It would also be good to heal yourself a tiny bit, albeit not much.

Even with 0 in Energy.

I might as well go with Kinetic Armor/Armor of Earth in that case. They'll help cover my attunements and provide more survivability.

Actually, how exactly does enchantment dispelling work? Does it remove the most recently cast enchantment, or a random one? If it removes the most recent one, then would Kinetic Armor get put at most recent each time it's renewed?

SpyderArachnid · Jul 31, 2009, 03:52 PM // 15:52

If you want Mesmer just for fast casting, then use nothing but ele skills, try using SoI.

Max out Illusion with a Sup Rune and Headpiece and then just keep SoI up and cast away. Tried that for awhile and it was actually pretty fun. Since SoI is a signet, no need to worry about it taking up your energy. Then just get radiant and attunement in your gear for the extra energy.

Just an idea :P

Verene · Jul 31, 2009, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziv

I might as well go with Kinetic Armor/Armor of Earth in that case. They'll help cover my attunements and provide more survivability.

Actually, how exactly does enchantment dispelling work? Does it remove the most recently cast enchantment, or a random one? If it removes the most recent one, then would Kinetic Armor get put at most recent each time it's renewed?

Enchantment removal generally removes the most recently cast enchantment(s), which is why people talk about using cover enchants, so that your more important ones don't get removed.

waeland · Jul 31, 2009, 04:10 PM // 16:10

If you want build for PvP, just create new PvP character with ele primary using already unlocked ele skills. Making Me/Ele PvP nuker using elemental magic has no sense.

For PvE - you can use this approach for fun but if you want to play this style ele primary would be working much better. There is one exception though - Signet Of Illusions (with it you can have Illusions 14-16, Fast Casting 13 and use all ele and mesmers skills with Illusions). Works great with Arcane Mimicry (you can copy elites from your friends, heroes or henchmans) or other spell-copy skill.

Evasion Twenty · Jul 31, 2009, 04:36 PM // 16:36

If you want a good build, use Aura of Lyssa or Mantra of Recovery, for 33% recharge or a constant +4/5 energy income.

waeland, its better to be Me/E in some cases for nuking because, while the energy may not be great, eles have plenty of powerfull regular skills and the fast casting and energy or 33% recharge is nice because it allows more spamming and less interrupts.

Ziv · Jul 31, 2009, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by waeland

If you want build for PvP, just create new PvP character with ele primary using already unlocked ele skills. Making Me/Ele PvP nuker using elemental magic has no sense.

Why's that? It would seem to me that you'd do less damage.

bartjé · Jul 31, 2009, 05:16 PM // 17:16

I am not really sure about it but isn't elemental attunement in the energy storage line? and needs investments in energy storage so it can be mantained?

Ziv · Jul 31, 2009, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by bartjé

I am not really sure about it but isn't elemental attunement in the energy storage line? and needs investments in energy storage so it can be mantained?

It helps but it's not necessary. At energy storage 0 it lasts for 30 seconds. At 12 it lasts for 50 seconds. It has a 45 second cooldown though, so I have Arcane Echo so I can keep it up indefinitely if I want.

waeland · Jul 31, 2009, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evasion Twenty

waeland, its better to be Me/E in some cases for nuking because, while the energy may not be great, eles have plenty of powerfull regular skills and the fast casting and energy or 33% recharge is nice because it allows more spamming and less interrupts.

I missed Lyssa's Aura. Combined with specific attunement you can cast spells faster than E/x and have good energy management, but I would miss ele elites like Sandstorm. Anyway Signet Of Illusions for Me/E would be more fun, at least for me (because of flexibility to freely combine all four elements AND all mesmer skill lines). On the other hand Lyssa's Aura would be amazing if more than one Me is in group - one can take Lyssa's Aura, other just copy it by Arcane Mimicry once before battle and it just keeps self re-aplying

Anyway, nuking in PvE has little use at the end of campaigns and in HM where elemental damage is useless, last few missions in Nightfall my ele did damage by ... Cry Of Pain, Backfire and Empathy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziv

Why's that? It would seem to me that you'd do less damage.

This is not viable PvP earth build. Maybe as a part of some special team, but then discuss team as a whole. Reasons: Skill interrupt/enchant removal cripples you instantly for a long time (no energy). You are using long-casting expensive spells, in PvP they are unreliable. You have earth build without any self defense or ward which are great for PvP. But I was partly wrong, it seems Me/E with mainly elemental skills can be great in PvP.

Ziv · Jul 31, 2009, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by waeland

This is not viable PvP earth build. Maybe as a part of some special team, but then discuss team as a whole. Reasons: Skill interrupt/enchant removal cripples you instantly for a long time (no energy). You are using long-casting expensive spells, in PvP they are unreliable. You have earth build without any self defense or ward which are great for PvP. But I was partly wrong, it seems Me/E with mainly elemental skills can be great in PvP.

Well I still have two empty spots that I haven't decided on. Among the skills I said I was considering were the earth self-defense spells you mentioned. Would Armor of Earth and Mantra of Resolve be enough to fix this build's flaws? Armor of Earth provides defense and enchant dispel protection. Mantra of Resolve provides interrupt protection, and I have plenty of energy to burn anyway.

Where am I using long-casting spells? My slowest spell is 1.5 seconds. The rest are 1 second or less. Is that too long?

I found a useful skill. Mindbender could double my DPS up to 224 with four Stone Daggers per second. It only works in pve though.

**Marty Silverblade** · Aug 01, 2009, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Keep in mind in PvP any build based on spamming like crazy will suck. Any half decent Ranger has DShot, so basically you'll have Stone Daggers on a 20 second recharge.

Ziv · Aug 01, 2009, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Silverblade

Keep in mind in PvP any build based on spamming like crazy will suck. Any half decent Ranger has DShot, so basically you'll have Stone Daggers on a 20 second recharge.

Does that still increase the duration even if the skill wasn't interrupted? Because if that's not the case then Mantra of Resolve will negate that problem.

draxynnic · Aug 01, 2009, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evasion Twenty

Bring aura of resto if you get ench areas, that could give SOME cover, even if multiple rips. It would also be good to heal yourself a tiny bit, albeit not much.

Even with 0 in Energy.

In PvE, it might be worth considering Elemental Lord instead, especially if you have more than 6 ranks in the appropriate title and aren't using SoI.

waeland · Aug 01, 2009, 02:15 PM // 14:15

First, not a good idea to discussing PvP and PvE build same time. Yes, few builds are great in both but this is not the case.

Second - it seems you have about as little PvP experience as myself. So, reasonable start is to pick some standart build with advice how to play it and try to survive in RA or AB.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziv

Would Armor of Earth and Mantra of Resolve be enough to fix this build's flaws? Armor of Earth provides defense and enchant dispel protection. Mantra of Resolve provides interrupt protection, and I have plenty of energy to burn anyway.

In PvE you earth provide many defenses, I love wards because it is great and unstripable group support. Kinetic Armor is fun (best with weapon of enchanting 19-20 and some spamable spell(s) ). Armor of Earth is easily to use. Sliver Armor and/or Stone striker + Mantra of Earth for solo farmers. Stoneflesh Aura is great protection for both solo and group PvE.

In PvP I would go for blocking (even if high armor reduces damage, you still get other effects - conditions especially daze and knockdowns are deadly) so in earth there is Ward Agains Melee or Magnetic Aura. Speed buff is also great defense (but enemy warriors have it too).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziv

Where am I using long-casting spells? My slowest spell is 1.5 seconds. The rest are 1 second or less. Is that too long?

The problem is - if your attunemenmts get interrupted or removed you are useless. If Eruption (1s) and Earthquage (1.5s) gets interrupted (and often as a result also disabled for some time) you are useless again. And you can't spam Earthquake much - without energy storage you can't live with many exhaustions. Yes, Mantra of Resolve or Mantra of Concentration can protect agains interrupts. But even then - you will wait looong time for rechanges (even with Arcane Echo).
So OK, you can try two attunements + arcane echo (but better some other skill)+ two main attack skills + at least one defense (like Ward Agains Melee or Magnetic Aura) + mantra as anti interrupt + something to fill spaces like stone daggers - and pray that enemies have not much enchantment stripping. If you try, let us know how it works, but I am afraid it is not very good PvP build.

Cirian · Aug 01, 2009, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziv

So basically this build is cripplingly vulnerable to enchantment dispelling, but as long as the attunements hold up it can cast stone daggers twice per second for 0 energy cost

There's usually a 0.75s after-cast delay after each spell by the way, so you won't be quite the machinegun you think.

PvE and PvP have split so far apart now it's hard to think about both at the same time. You can use enchantments better in PvE areas that you know are safe for enchantment use, otherwise they are super fragile. Especially long recharge ones!

Me/E spell spammers are pretty good fun and they do work. I think the more common ones tend to be Fire (Lyssa's Aura) or Water (Mirror of Ice) though. Both of these have effects that ignore armour (burning or Mirror of Ice damage), which make them desirable at least in normal PvE, and you can play them in the Factions PvP formats (FA/JQ/AB) as well.

The spells you want to look at where mesmers have an advantage over elementalists are the really spammy ones where Fast Casting becomes a bigger advantage than runes. For fire, I like Mark of Rodgort with Lava Arrows and Immolate, and either Meteor or Firestorm as my one area-specific spell. Now for an elementalist I'd just take a Searing Flames bar over Lava Arrows any day, but it for a mesmer it keeps multiple targets burning really well and it's what they can support with Lyssa's Aura and Fire Attunement. The bonus you get as a mesmer is that with an 8+1/10+2/12 split you can always take Mantra of Resolve at level 12, which means you can virtually ignore interrupts - that's a huge advantage! D-shot is worthless against this kind of character, but Powerblock... ah, well Fast Casting helps a bit

This is why Me/E have endured well in GvG, because they can be built for reliability.

Another thing I would advise with Me/E is not to take spells over 10 energy if you can help it. The reason for this is that you want some effectiveness without your enchantments. Have enchantment loss slow you down, not render you useless.

If you want to try bars and test real DPS and energy management over a sustained period, try the Master of Damage out on the Isle of the Nameless at the Great Temple of Balthazar.

edit: oh I just remembered, Mirror of Ice was nerfed into oblivion for mesmers so I don't know what people do with water anymore!

Ziv · Aug 02, 2009, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Thanks for all the useful posts everyone!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

There's usually a 0.75s after-cast delay after each spell by the way, so you won't be quite the machinegun you think.

Thanks. I measured my cast time with a video recording program and you're right on. I guess that blows this idea out of the water. The main reason I came up with this was that I read a build from someone who said they were going to use Lightning Orb for spiking. It seemed to me that if you could get four Stone Daggers off in the time it takes to cast one Lightning Orb, you'd do much more damage even to high armor targets in the same amount of time, and you'd be able to keep on casting it with no downtime.

Quote:

The spells you want to look at where mesmers have an advantage over elementalists are the really spammy ones where Fast Casting becomes a bigger advantage than runes. For fire, I like Mark of Rodgort with Lava Arrows and Immolate, and either Meteor or Firestorm as my one area-specific spell. Now for an elementalist I'd just take a Searing Flames bar over Lava Arrows any day, but it for a mesmer it keeps multiple targets burning really well and it's what they can support with Lyssa's Aura and Fire Attunement. The bonus you get as a mesmer is that with an 8+1/10+2/12 split you can always take Mantra of Resolve at level 12, which means you can virtually ignore interrupts - that's a huge advantage! D-shot is worthless against this kind of character, but Powerblock... ah, well Fast Casting helps a bit

This is why Me/E have endured well in GvG, because they can be built for reliability.

Another thing I would advise with Me/E is not to take spells over 10 energy if you can help it. The reason for this is that you want some effectiveness without your enchantments. Have enchantment loss slow you down, not render you useless.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll look into those.

Quote:

If you want to try bars and test real DPS and energy management over a sustained period, try the Master of Damage out on the Isle of the Nameless at the Great Temple of Balthazar.

Thanks, he'll be really useful.

Quote:

In PvP I would go for blocking (even if high armor reduces damage, you still get other effects - conditions especially daze and knockdowns are deadly) so in earth there is Ward Agains Melee or Magnetic Aura. Speed buff is also great defense (but enemy warriors have it too).

So blocking prevents conditions from attacks that cause them?

Quote:

The problem is - if your attunemenmts get interrupted or removed you are useless. If Eruption (1s) and Earthquage (1.5s) gets interrupted (and often as a result also disabled for some time) you are useless again.

I understand what you're saying, but I see Lightning Orb and Obsidian Flame recommended as staple Elementalist spiking skills. What's the difference?

Quote:

And you can't spam Earthquake much - without energy storage you can't live with many exhaustions. Yes, Mantra of Resolve or Mantra of Concentration can protect agains interrupts. But even then - you will wait looong time for rechanges (even with Arcane Echo).
So OK, you can try two attunements + arcane echo (but better some other skill)+ two main attack skills + at least one defense (like Ward Agains Melee or Magnetic Aura) + mantra as anti interrupt + something to fill spaces like stone daggers - and pray that enemies have not much enchantment stripping. If you try, let us know how it works, but I am afraid it is not very good PvP build.

Yeah that's pretty much what I was thinking. Hope I don't get hit by enchant stripping and try to kill something fast. But if Stone Daggers doesn't work the way I thought it did, there's no point to this build.

waeland · Aug 02, 2009, 08:29 AM // 08:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziv

So blocking prevents conditions from attacks that cause them?

Nearly all the times. And not only conditions, but also knockdowns, atack based interrupts, enchantment strips, energy drains, disrupt sin attack chains.... just let enemy warior or sin to get to you in PvP, they usually give fast lessons about this

On the other hand, some atacks are unblockable (and because blocking is popular in PvP so are these attacks).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziv

I understand what you're saying, but I see Lightning Orb and Obsidian Flame recommended as staple Elementalist spiking skills. What's the difference?

They are spamable (5s), Lightning Orb has 25% armor penetration + more from Cracked Armor and Obsidian Flame ignores armor completely (but causes exhaustion, so not good for Me/E). But - I was not saying that Eruption or Earthquage are bad skills (even thou they are not the most usefull in PvP), I was saying that build as a whole is too easy to shut down.

Freedom III · Aug 29, 2009, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziv

So blocking prevents conditions from attacks that cause them?

The reason for blocking preventing conditions and such is due to a key phrase that usually goes along the lines of "if this attack hits" at the beginning of most attack skills' descriptions.